A good friend of mine from Div School takes on good old-fashioned religious intolerance in the Islamic setting - with a conservative, though not extremist Muslim, in a conversation on Facebook. Who knew that postmodern contextualization could be just as effectively wielded in the Bedouin desert?Zach Warren commented on Basheer Ghafoor's status.
Basheer Ghafoor 99. If it had been your Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! will you then compel mankind, against their will, to believe? 100.No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.
13 hours ago
Dawood Banday likes this.
Zach Warren indeed, he admonished, “Let there be no compulsion in religion” (Qur’an 2:256)
And also warned us to consider and appreciate the personal diversity of belief : “Say: O you who disbelieve, I worship not that which you worship, nor will you worship that which I worship, and I will not worship that which you have worshipped, and you will not worship that which I worship, to you is your path (religion) and to me is mine.” (Qur’an 109:1-6).
Tuesday at 6:30am
Dawood Banday @zach, the above verse doesn't indicate freedom of diversity of belief, rather it is rebuking disbelievers that muslims don't believe what ever you believe....thus, it says, Unto you your religion and unto me my religion.
Wednesday at 8:10am
Basheer Ghafoor Yes.
Zach-- I'm not sure where you got that idea from. But how can God tell us to consider and appreciate more than one religion? There is only one true religion. The rest of them are just lies made against Allah (May He be Glorified and Exalted).
Verse: “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85].
Here is a tafseer of surat Al- Kafiroon, http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=109&tid=59385.
Please study the suras from reliable sources... lest you would be making up lies against Islam.
Wednesday at 8:29am
Zach Warren A chapter of the Qur’an entitled The Unbelievers, referring to those who reject the message of monotheism preached by Prophet Muhammad, stresses that belief is a matter of personal conviction and that difference in faith should not be the cause for persecution or abuse
Wednesday at 8:54am
Zach Warren The Qur’an’s endorsement of religiously and culturally plural societies and the recognition of the salvific value of other monotheistic religions has greatly affected the treatment of non-Muslims in Muslim lands. If you're interested to learn more, I can recommend some Muslim historical texts, written by believers. Through the centuries, various Muslim societies have attempted to implement these pluralist ideals with varying degrees of success. It is also clear, however, that other Muslim societies, at certain historical times and in certain contexts, have chosen to ignore these pluralist ideals or to cast them aside. In their place, discourses of exclusivism and intolerance became prevalent. The most significant of these can be traced back to the eighth and ninth centuries when Islam became a religion of empire and attempts were made to bestow theological legitimacy to the growth of Arab imperial hegemony. Within this context, certain segments of the Muslim political and religious establishments promoted anti-pluralist - that is, exclusivist - readings and interpretations of the Qur’an, primarily to advance hegemonic goals. For this purpose, as Abdulaziz Sachedina has written (Abdulaziz Sachedina, The Islamic Roots of Democratic Pluralism (Oxford University Press, 2001, see p 29), several Muslim exegetes devised terminological and methodological strategies to mold the exegesis of the sacred text so as to provide a convincing prop for absolutist ends.
In other words, in your words -- lies. The principal means by which the exclusivists were able to promote their view was through the declaration that the many verses calling for pluralism, commanding Muslims to build bridges of understanding with non-Muslims, had been abrogated by other vers es that call for fighting the infidel. The verses in question were revealed in the context of armed conflicts between a small, beleaguered Muslim community and its powerful Christian, Jewish and pagan Arab adversaries. Typical of these verses is the following: “Then when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay zakat (the alms tax), let them go their way. Surely God is forgiving and merciful.” (Qur’an 9: 5). Another verse, revealed when certain Jewish and Christian groups betrayed the Muslim cause and joined in the military assault by the pagan Arabs against Prophet Muhammad and the Muslim community, cautioned against taking Jews and Christians as close political allies (Qur’an 5: 51). It is only by completely disregarding the original historical context of revelation of such verses and using them to engage in a large-scale abrogation of contradictory vers es that the exclusivist Muslim exegetes have been able to counteract the pluralist ethos that so thoroughly pervades the Qur’an.
In other words, dear brothers, the charge of reading the Qur'an with an open heart and open mind requires understanding the historical context in which it was written. Otherwise, it is to choose ignorance.
Wednesday at 9:00am
Basheer Ghafoor Yes, we shouldn't abuse or oppress any human being--- regardless of their religion.
But religion isn't how you put it. In Islam, there is a concept of fitrah. Each human is born with a natural belief and a natural tendency to worship one God--- it is the environment of the individual that causes them to make lies about God and to worship Him with partners. Simply put, if you believe there should be a judgment day, where all humans are recounted for their deeds-- there can only be one religion... one way. Please don't read an English translation of the Quran and interpret it however you please. Read the tafseer or ask a reliable Muslim scholar about Surat al kafiroon.
Wednesday at 9:09am
Zach Warren Basheer, thanks for your admonition -- actually the translation I read comes from one of the world's experts on the Sura al Kafiroon. But I'll forgive the accusation that I "interpret it however I please," since the interpretation is by a believer familiar with hundreds of years of scholarship on the verse. He has a book on the subject coming out soon, and I'll happily pass it on if you're interested to learn more about your religious tradition.
Wednesday at 9:16am
Basheer Ghafoor If I fully understood the above text, I agree with it. Muslims agree with it. And the Sunnah agrees with it.
In no way are we promoting isolation from non-Muslims and using such verses as an excuse to do so--- while "going to way" and killing them. No. Killing one innocent life is the same as killing the entire world's population--- that's how serious it is. If we were to hate and isolate our selves from non-Muslims--- and never speak to them and promote the killing of them--- that would be against the Sunnah of our Prophet (SAW).
But Surat Al-Kafiroon is exactly the opposite of your interpretation. Allah (SWT) orders our Prophet (Peace be upon him) to not tolerate the disbelievers. We cannot accept or tolerate Buddism or Christianity or Juddaism or any other religion, because it goes against the basic fundamental belief of Islam--- worship One God.
Please read the tafseer (explanation) of reliable scholars on the Surah. Or you can listen to a great speaker (I have posted the link, from Bayyinah Institute) about the Surah.
In the verse that I quoted before, Allah clearly does not accept any other religion besides Islam (which means to submit to One God). He (SWT) will not accept for His creation to associate partners to Him (May He Be Gloried and Exalted). He will only accept His creation to submit and worship Him, and Him only. And that is Islam.
As for the disbelievers (any religion besides worshiping One God), it is clear what will happen to them in the Hereafter.
If Allah accepted another religion besides the submission to Him, and Him alone, there would be no Hellfire. Everyone would just go to Heaven. There would be no judgment day, there would be no test. Nothing.
Sorry if I came off as harsh... but all of this goes against the basic principles in Islam.
Wednesday at 1:10pm
Zach Warren The Sunnah and Islam as a whole supports the revelations of Jewish and Christian holy books. The Qur'an is considered the completion of these revelations, and therefore in no way is it true that "We cannot accept or tolerate Buddism or Christianity or Juddaism or any other religion, because it goes against the basic fundamental belief of Islam--- worship One God." Judaism and Christianity are monotheistic, Abrahamic religions. Moreover, the Prophet does not advocate intolerance. In fact, he speaks against intolerance and grants special rights and privileges to members of other monotheistic traditions within Muslim lands.
Perhaps what needs to be clarified, in this discussion, is what exactly is meant when you say "tolerance," on a level of policies. Is tolerance merely the absence of killing? Not by Islamic tradition. In Islamic schools of thought, tolerance is much more sophisticated, and relates to all levels of interaction. Tolerance of another faith tradition does not mean you have to agree with it. On the contrary, tolerance applies ONLY when you do NOT agree with it. Do you have any good recommendations for sources on tolerance, specifically? In particular, any texts that take an historical understanding of Islam, drawing from past wisdom?
13 hours ago
Basheer Ghafoor We argue that, no, they are not monotheistic religions. In order for one to believe in a monotheistic religon (the religion of Abraham (AS), one has to believe in One God.
If one believes in One God, he is Muslim (Muslim = one who is submitting to Islam. Islam = worshipping One God).
Tolerance in the form of a middle path, not taking it to either extremes. That middle path is the way (sunnah) of our Prophet Muhammad (peace be up on him). He engaged in trade with them,
he conversed with them, and he gave them invitations/commmands to accept Islam. Other than that, they don't believe what we believe, and we don't believe what they believe.
Of course, to start off, here are some very important verses from the Quran. Please read at least the first three:
" Never will the jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.
" Al Baqara
" They say: "Become jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #135)"
"O ye who believe! take not the jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
"
The word for "friend" here is in no way the same "friendship" we are used to. There are many words for "friend" in Arabic, and the word used here means a close companion on whom you rely heavily upon (almost as a protector). Some use this verse as an excuse to say we cannot have Christian or Jew "friends", and they are wrong, and have misinterpreted the verse do to their ignorance of the Arabic language.
"O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out. "
An Nisa
"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah.s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
"
At-Tawba
Here is an English translation of (authentic) narrations of our Prophet (SAW). You will find his (SAW) interactions and dealings with the jews/or christians.
http://www.usc.edu/cgi-bin/msasearch
9 hours ago
Basheer Ghafoor http://www.thedeenshow.com/show.php?action=detail&id=1051
9 hours ago
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Andy VaryuZach, I loved your conversation with Basheer Ghafoor, and was itching to chime in but Facebook won't let me unless he approves me as a friend
You are certainly more up on the texts behind this conversation than I, but it strikes me how much modern Islam, as with current American Christianity - bases so much on a rather superficial read on religions. Basheer seemed to be tuned into the point that Islam=submitting to the One God, but didn't make the leap that a Christian who submits (in his heart) to the same God might also be a brother. Why does the conversation continue to bubble up to the superficiality of "I call myself a (Christian/Muslim) and therefore cannot be a brother with you, a (Muslim/Christian).
In Christianity, as you know, we have the awareness that one can call himself a Christian without actually submitting to or loving God in his heart ("I never knew you!" Matthew 7:21-23). Do some Muslims also have this understanding - that it is not just going through the motions and labels that defines us (which fuel, as you put it, the "terminological and methodological" tactics), but what is going on in our hearts? I would assume that some do - and hence the argument would follow that there are subsets of Muslims, Christians, and Jews (at least) who in their hearts have and do submit to the the One God, can therefore be said to be practicing Islam, and are related as brothers and sisters as children of the One God - and many other Jews, Christians and Muslims who do not have this going on and are the infidels. It strikes me as a bit shallow to think of God as so superficial that he is going to pick whom to be pleased with based on what we call ourselves. No scripture I can think of supports that idea.
Anyway - great to see you taking on this topic, and so articulately - I wish more people would, and that it would be seen more! I think I will post it on my blog just for that reason :)
Peace and love bro,
Andy